Presentations and the Demise of Skype
So after that, I thought I'd treat myself to some testing. And I did, and it was nice. I enjoyed it.
Ian:What what did you test?
Ash:So it was a progressive web form which exposes parts of the form as you go based on what you select. And it needs to do lookups to various things. It was just fun. It was just had lots of moving parts, nice and fun to test, but also not a a huge undefined and distinct piece of functionality, quite contained.
Ian:So And what was the mission of the testing?
Ash:What was the mission of the testing? Well, the main mission was because it was the first time we integrated with a particular service was to test that. I always define the mission of the testing. Otherwise, what's the point in doing the testing?
Ian:Well, it might just be fun.
Ash:Well, yeah. But you can have fun and have a mission.
Ian:Just ask any astronaut.
Ash:Yeah. Exactly.
Ian:Oh, dear. Oh, dear. So, yes, I'm looking at a list of my outstanding things.
Ash:My outstanding things. Are are they things that you haven't done yet? Or
Ian:No. They are things that we haven't done an episode about yet.
Ash:Alright. Okay.
Ian:Only one of them has an episode attached, and that's the one for this episode.
Ash:Alright. Okay. That's good. Timely.
Ian:That's not a concept we recognise...
Ash:No.
Ian:...aboard this podcast.
Ash:Just enough just in time at the last responsible moment.
Ian:Slightly beyond the last responsible moment. Excellent. So
Ash:So we're gonna launch into some... some things.
Ian:I thought that was pretty of a half hearted preamble, to be honest.
Ash:I had a great time.
Ian:Did you?
Ash:Yeah. I told you about my day. And then I got to talk about testing and what the mission of the testing was.
Ian:Oh, okay.
Ash:That was fantastic.
Ian:Alright. I see that you had an excellent preamble.
Ash:Yeah. Absolutely. Best preamble ever.
Ian:Well, steady on. I mean, we've had some pretty good preambles. But I suppose, yes, let's do an amble Yes. Which I suppose is what comes after preambles.
Ash:Mhmm.
Ian:So why are they not called ambles, and why is it that use nobody ever talks about a post amble?
Ash:I don't.
Ian:So this is more like it.
Ian:Yeah.
Ian:This is the kind of thing we should be dealing with on What A Lot Of Things.
Ash:Not not relevant technology topics?
Ian:No. No.
Ash:So I've heard people say well, actually, no. I haven't, actually. That's complete rubbish. I Would
Ian:you like to make a list of other things that you haven't heard people say?
Ash:Haven't heard people say. No one would, going out for an amble, would they? But they might say, I
Ian:Sometimes people do.
Ash:I think you're more likely to use it in in, like, the post post walk.
Ian:It's a bit of an affectation, I would say, to describe your upcoming walk as an amble.
Ash:Yeah. But after the walk, you might say, well, I just ambled around.
Ian:Yes. You might describe your walk in that way Yeah. If it wasn't very decisive.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. But you wouldn't say, you know, this is my my post amble description. It's that I've been for an amble. Post amble is not a a phrase that I've heard from my fellow humans.
Ian:I'm just asking Chat G P T Why is there no such thing as a post amble, and why do we not describe the middle of things as ambles? So chat GPT has a convincing answer, which is not news because chat GPT always has a convincing answer. Yep. So it says that preamble comes from the Latin "praeambulus", meaning walking before, ambulare, to walk.
Ian:It refers to an introduction or preliminary statement, which which we know. Mhmm. Why no post amble? Instead, we have words like conclusion, epilogue, or afterward to describe things that come after a main text. In theory, post amble would mean something that walks after, but it simply was never established in common use.
Ian:Simply. So basically, what chat GPT's answer is is that there's no such thing as a post amble because there isn't any such thing as a post amble.
Ash:Good. But, you know, as long as you state it confidently.
Ian:For the middle of something, we already have words like body, main section, or core. Right. Alright. In short, preamble stuck because it had a clear formal use in legal and literary contexts. Whereas post Amble and Amble simply never caught on.
Ian:Other words already filled those roles. Well, that told me chat GPT.
Ash:That will teach you to ask.
Ian:I'm sorry for asking such pointless stupid questions. So bringing my humble questions to the feet of your wisdom. So let's amble.
Ash:Let's amble.
Ian:And I'm going first.
Ash:Is that true?
Ian:With this whole thing of recording episodes close to each other in time. In fact, we're recording this one before the last one has even come out. I think one of my interlude topics will be the editing of the video, which hopefully will have come out.
Ash:So you get a tie you get a create, like, a time anchor between this episode and that episode.
Ian:Well, why would we change the habits of lifetimes?
Ash:Do you often create time anchors between things that you, pieces of content that you create? Yes. You do, actually. Sorry. Can
Ian:I ask chat g p t?
Ash:Do chat g p t? What is a time anchor, and why do I create them all the time?
Ian:What is a time anchor, and why are they good things to create all the time?
Ash:I feel compelled to ask you about your thing and what it is.
Ian:Well, my thing so I've realized that every time I have to say what my thing is, I feel like I have to start by slightly apologizing for it by saying it's weird or offbeat or something. So this one isn't. Right. There's no preambular apology for this one.
Ash:But there might be a post ambular apology once we're done.
Ian:Nope. Nope. Well, I suppose it depends how it goes. So my thing is presentations and presentation software. Right.
Ian:So earlier in time because actually it was
Ash:Oh, god. We're we're starting to reference time in just like the cosmic fashion. You know what I mean?
Ian:I was gonna say earlier this year, but then I realized, actually, it was late last year.
Ash:Right. Okay.
Ian:I did a couple of talks. Yeah. And that brought the whole ideas and thinking about presentations back up to the the top of my brain and one of the things about so I used to have a a massive kind of hobby horse about this because I worked shall we say in a large company for a very long time. One of the largest? One of the largest for a very long time and I saw some truly abominable uses of PowerPoint.
Ian:There's basically no other word that even begins to touch some of the things that I saw done with PowerPoint.
Ash:Mhmm. A lot of text on one slide. I find the larger the organization, the more propensity to add a lot of text on one slide.
Ian:Yeah. I saw some terrible things done with PowerPoint. Yeah. And I bought a book back in that day in the mid two thousands I guess this was called Presentation Zen
Ash:Oh.
Ian:By a gentleman called Garr Reynolds who kind of upended my thinking about how these things ought to be done. And I started doing presentations that kind of blew the minds of people my old company. I did one about virtual worlds and second life that we were looking into in 02/2006. And I did it using Keynote because at that time, PowerPoint was just it it was almost set up to prevent you from making things that looked nice.
Ash:Just remove all the interest in entertainment from it.
Ian:Yes. Yeah. So Arial Yeah. Which still remains my most hated font.
Ash:Yeah.
Ian:Well, no.
Ash:I always found it interesting that with Keynote and PowerPoint, you could basically make the same presentation, but the Keynote one would just look more beautiful.
Ian:Yes. And if you use the features of Keynote, you could make one that looks yet more beautiful. So keynote's got things like magic move where if you have two things on two consecutive slides but you make them bigger or smaller or move them it will transition the item as it transitions the slides so things like that which which look look really good and so I got very into this and I actually wrote a thing a presentation that I did in quite a lot of places called rethinking the presentation which was about this topic.
Ash:Very meta.
Ian:It tried to ask questions like do you really need slides to do this talk? Why do you need because we kinda walk into it, don't we?
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. And also, I think slides are used as a bit of a as a helper as well, aren't they, for for the speaker?
Ian:Well, so So
Ash:you got, like, two audience. You don't how shall I say it? Stakeholders, if you like. You do. So you've got the audience who are consuming it and the speaker who's delivering it, and the slides are something to do with both of them.
Ian:So that's that's interesting. So I I think I read in presentation then. I've known, it's been internalized in my head for a very long time, is that people use slides for three things. Right. So they use them as a teleprompter.
Ian:So what am I gonna say? Yep. And then they use them as a takeaway. So I'm gonna give you a copy of the slides so that you can have them Yep. Afterwards.
Ian:And then they use them to reinforce what they're actually saying the actual talk.
Ash:Mhmm.
Ian:And it seems that these are quite and actually there's there's a kind of and that's just for doing talks and there's a version of using PowerPoint for status meetings where each slide has a form on it that's filled in with the particular items.
Ash:Has a rag status on it.
Ian:Yeah. And that sort of thing I think has died out because we've got things like JIRA. Yeah. I hope things like that have died out because we've got things like Jira that let you, sort of walk through your It's
Ash:like your tasks. We have PowerPoint and Jira.
Ian:Hallelujah. So but if you think of those three things, two of them are really wrong. Right. Because you should know what you're gonna say. Yep.
Ian:And if you people want something to take away, the slides might not be very good for that unless they're really a document. Yeah. Yeah. In which case, you shouldn't be projecting them.
Ash:Yeah.
Ian:And, really, what you're doing, if if you're delivering a talk, then you're delivering a talk. And what you should do is focus on usages of slides that directly reinforce that purpose. Right. So not so much reminding you what to say, not so much as a takeaway document, but something that's there in the moment. Okay.
Ian:Anyway, this is my Yeah. So, you know, sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words, so, you know, have a picture.
Ash:Yeah. I like I like slides as as an audience member.
Ian:So what do you get from them as an audience member?
Ash:I'm quite a visual person. So, I I like talks because there's usually a visual and there's an auditory. And I as long as with the visuals, I don't have to read too much, I am so happy. But I realized that I have obviously, every audience member has specific, like, needs, don't they?
Ian:Yeah. They do. And people learn in different ways Yeah. All those kinds of things. Yeah.
Ash:So a talk with, like, good visuals and, obviously, the auditory part of it as well is like that's like my my sort of Sweet spot. Sweet spot for learning, basically.
Ian:So do you think that most talks have got slides that do that?
Ash:Slides that that sort of sort of stimulate the sort of meet my sort of visual need as well.
Ian:Yeah. I mean, because what you're talking about is actually quite a good use of it. Yeah. And, of course, I started off by complaining how much bad usage of it I've seen. Yeah.
Ian:I just wondered if your experience of PowerPoint is similar to mine in that you see, you know, you've seen terrible PowerPoint Yeah. Abominations that should just not have happened.
Ash:Yeah. So I guess, like, my slide slides that that engage me probably, like it will have, like, a short, snappy title, which is backing up, reinforcing, reminding, like, what the speaker is talking about, plus an image of some description. It could be a meme, depending on what they're talking about. It could be an animal. You know, whatever the relevant image is for the for the thing that they're talking about.
Ash:But if you start then putting bullet points and things like that on it, that's when I start to drift away from it as a engaging medium.
Ian:So that's really interesting, and I think I'm probably with you on that. Yeah. Well, I suppose what I'm really thinking about that is that a good talk is a good talk, and I'm not sure slides of any description make a bad talk into a good talk.
Ash:No. But I see where you're going. I see where you're going with it.
Ian:But maybe they can make a good talk into a great talk.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. I think I think I would broadly agree with that because you can have, like, a really say if you had a really engaging speaker who created some less than engaging visuals, it'd still be a good talk. But, say, if they had, you know, someone hand draw some cartoons for them for the visuals, then it would probably create an amazing talk. Yeah.
Ash:Yeah. So, yeah, I I see where you're going, and I and I would I would agree.
Ian:So I for years, you could either do well, first of all, you could only ever do a PowerPoint presentation. Yeah. And then Keynote came along because Steve Jobs basically said, I don't wanna use PowerPoint. Make me a a tool, and then they released it. Yeah.
Ian:And so all of the famous heyday of Steve Jobs' Apple keynotes were all done using keynote. And that was my tool of choice for a long time. Yeah. Because for a long time, it was conspicuously better than PowerPoint and would look better. Yeah.
Ian:And I think PowerPoint has come a long way in that same time, but but I still find myself despising it whenever I have to use it. Yeah. Yeah. And I would be much happier to use Keynote.
Ash:So I do have opinions on slides.
Ian:I'd be astonished if you didn't, Ash. I'd be.
Ash:So I find people can be very there's snobbishness around slides and the use of them. So it's I'd be interested in that book. I don't know what tone that book is delivered in in terms of, like, the use of slides. But some people are like, if you need slides, then you're doing a bad presentation. Or if you need notes, you're doing a bad presentation.
Ash:You should know what you're talking about. So both of those, I totally disagree with, and you should just let people find a way to talk which suits them in terms of getting their message across. I if someone has some notes and is reading from them and still looking up and engaging with the audience, then that's their talk. And if it's getting the message across, then great. Why should there be, like, a, you know, a set of, like, hidden not hidden rules, but, you know, conventions.
Ash:No.
Ian:No. No. Hidden.
Ash:Just rules. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So it reminds me of,
Ian:Don't use Comic Sans. Yeah. Just against the rules.
Ash:Why not? Actually, now I'm gonna use Comic Sans in my next presentation. But, it reminds me of what's that club called? Toastmasters.
Ian:Oh, yes. For for doing for for learning to speak.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. And I know someone who went, and every time he ummed or a'ed, he was booed by the rest of the Toastmasters who sounded like the worst set of jerks you could even imagine. So and I find that presentations, slides, talks bring out, like, this swirl of, like, opinions about what good looks like. So I've seen talks without slides which were so terrifyingly bad that and went on for so long, like most of my life that
Ian:It's subjective years.
Ash:Yeah. Exactly. And I've also seen people talk without slides and hold my attention completely. So there's a lot to it.
Ian:Yeah. Yeah. You're right. But there are things you can do. Yeah.
Ian:First of all, I'm gonna start by taking issue. This is what we we our reviews suggested that we do. But people should know what they're talking about. And what I mean by that is don't do a presentation unless you know the thing you're presenting about.
Ash:But what happens if you if you still feel more comfortable having notes about it with you?
Ian:Well, that's a different question. So if I decided
Ash:Alright so you're saying something different to what I was saying?
Ian:Well I I I'm exploring that.
Ash:Right okay.
Ian:So if I I wouldn't necessarily do a presentation about quantum computing I don't mind doing a podcast. Podcast. Half a podcast episode, Catherine. But because I just don't have the expertise. Yeah.
Ian:So if I did one about that, it maybe could be the story of me exploring it. Yeah. But it I wouldn't be billing it as learn about quantum computing.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah.
Ian:Let's say that I
Ash:But that's like that's like topic selection isn't it rather than the presentation or the slides itself?
Ian:Well it's expertise selection. Yeah. So the thing is that I sometimes I I think I've seen this sort of illustrated. Maybe I've done it. Illustrated as a kind of if you think about your talk Yeah.
Ian:And you draw a circle and that's what's in your talk, and then you think about your expertise and what you know about well enough to tell other people about it Yeah. The first circle should be entirely inside the second one. Yeah. Sure. And if it's if there's already a thin gap between the two Yeah.
Ian:Then you might be a bit more nervous. And if there's a large gap you'd probably be a bit less nervous because effectively what you're what that suggests is you know a lot of related things Yeah. That are not part of your talk but you could go off that tangent if you needed to. What I I think I'm railing against a bit is people not being portraying themselves maybe as experts on things who aren't.
Ash:Right. Okay. I mean, you could still be an expert on something and still be nervous about giving the talk. Of course. Want some notes to help you.
Ian:And the notes might be this is your agenda.
Ash:Yeah.
Ian:And then we're getting into, am I gonna read out the notes, or am I going to use them to remind me? Yeah. And I think a good talk, generally, it would be more the latter than the former because it's quite
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Ian:Unengaging if someone's simply just reading out a script.
Ash:Yeah.
Ian:But, yeah, you're right. There's a lot in it.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. And I I just think there's there's an awful lot of judgment inherently in when everyone watches a talk about what they think a good talk should be and how it should be structured and how you should deliver it. Don't get me wrong. I would love to be the sort of person who could just talk without slides to an audience and hold their attention Mhmm.
Ash:For, you know, the entire but you're talking about, like
Ian:Sir Ken Robinson.
Ash:Yeah. You're talking about people who have, like, deep, deep, deep expertise and have performed consistently year upon year upon year in front of lots of people Yep. And practice those skills so much and have have a brand, a name, whatever it is, that all of those things come together and come together in a performance. Whereas, not everybody's like that. So everyone needs all the things in order to help them along.
Ash:So whether that be slides, notes, whatever it is.
Ian:And everyone's done their first talk
Ash:Yeah.
Ian:And been scared
Ash:Yeah.
Ian:Because it is Yeah. A bit scary.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. It is. Yeah. Yeah.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. But I just think I'd
Ian:It shouldn't be terrifying to give talks. No. You shouldn't have to be terrifying. Yeah. Equally, people should work at it.
Ian:Yeah. People should work at it. You should give the best talk you can.
Ash:Yeah. You should try and provide a friendly environment to do that in, as in not Toastmasters. Well,
Ian:I think Toastmasters is meant to be a learning environment. More than a friendly I mean I I've never been to it.
Ash:No. No. I've only got like anecdotal. I'm sure they're not the most terrible people in the world.
Ian:No. But I and I think that they are you know they're upfront about they're trying to help. They're not trying to
Ash:I don't know. There's some kinds of help you can do with and there's some kinds of help you can do without.
Ian:Yeah. And there's a balance between being encouraging and
Ash:Yeah. Yeah.
Ian:This is interesting. This has gone away that I kind of wasn't expecting. The thing is that that there are rules of thumb that people should I'm just trying to See,
Ash:it's interesting because you're like you're you're shoulding. You're saying, you know, a talk should be this or should be that.
Ian:Well, no. I'm I'm not saying what the talk should be or shouldn't be I'm saying that there are
Ash:You are, shouldn't. You're saying you you should have this level of expertise.
Ian:No. Well on your topic.
Ash:Yeah. That's still a should though isn't it?
Ian:Yeah it is but it's not unreasonable. I mean, even if someone's giving their first talk about something Yeah. I wouldn't advise that they gave it about something they don't know anything about.
Ash:No. No. No. Absolutely.
Ian:The closest anyone should go to that is here's my exploration story.
Ash:Yeah. Like a journey through it. Yeah. Fair enough. But it's hard, isn't it, to get past what you think Well, it What the, you know, the the anatomy of a of a good talk and presentation Well,
Ian:I'm set of slides. Yes. Because I feel that there's a there are rules of thumb that people would do well to sort of know about and to follow. Yeah. And I feel like those exist, and they're probably not all that finger wagging Yeah.
Ian:In in nature.
Ash:Because, of course, you have the delivery of those rules of thumb as well, don't you? Yes.
Ian:Yes. And each one has to finish with another thing. Yeah.
Ash:Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, they cut they can be either those rules of thumb can be either valuable guidance delivered in a in a in a sort of friendly and compassionate way.
Ian:Or a damn good thrasher.
Ash:Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But then often, I find with talks, presentations, and that type of, in that type of environment, that line is very can be quite thin.
Ian:Yes. It is hard to tell the difference between a damn good thrasher
Ash:and a
Ian:bit of encouragement.
Ash:Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Ian:Yeah. I think one of the rules of thumb would be find the small circle inside the big circle. Yeah.
Ash:Sure.
Ian:So that you're talking about something that you know well. Yeah. Because that's a source of confidence. Is, yeah, I do this every day. Yeah.
Ian:I know all about it. Mhmm.
Ash:I think that's reasonable.
Ian:And another one the thing is I can't get around. There's a rule of thumb that says don't write a million words on your slide Yeah. Because people will read them and not listen to you. Yeah. And god knows I've seen enough of those.
Ian:What else? Let let's tell people who've never really done a presentation before. Let's tell them the the guidelines that we would suggest.
Ash:So, well, I mean, I've so my own personal what I find engaging is, like I say, imagery, short amounts of text as a header for a slide that is sort of relevant to what the person is talking about, Like a signpost to say, you know, these are the sections. This is what we're gonna go through, and this is where we are. I don't mind that personally. I quite like that. Yep.
Ash:And some tools, they have, like, a little progress bar, don't they, at the bottom? I love that.
Ian:I I presenters' version of this, which is, at least in some of the themes, you start off with blue slides, and they slowly convert to orange. Yeah. The background color slowly changes as you go through from beginning to end. So it's like morning and evening on either end of it. It's it's very different.
Ash:That's that's that's very nice. And I I, like, I would find that, like, engaging as well. Yeah. Yeah. And it for my visual brain, it it kind of adds, like a it would add a bit of interest because I'd be like, oh, something's changed.
Ash:Yes. And then, you know, you'd figure it out. So I quite like that. But, yeah, signposting is is good, like, in your slides, I think. But that's, like, for me.
Ash:So, you know, I realize I'm gonna hold on. Well, you've called them rules of thumb because it they're not gonna suit every every taste, are they?
Ian:No. No. I am just thinking because my rules of thumb would would extend for yeah. You see, that's interesting because some of them are my rules of thumb, the ones I have. So I I would never use Comic Sans, and I would I would never suggest that someone used Comic Sans in the in the presentation.
Ash:I think all signs should be in Comic Sans.
Ian:Because, basically, you lose all respect if you use Comic Sans. You basically deserve the damn good. Good. No. No.
Ian:No. That that was a joke.
Ash:You deserve the encouragement.
Ian:Yeah. You deserve all the encouragement in the world.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of advice out there, though, isn't there, about presentation?
Ian:There is. I I Tons and tons of it. I really liked the presentation's end view of things. Yeah. So I recommend that book to anybody.
Ian:Yeah.
Ash:So it kind of resonated with with you.
Ian:Well, at that time, I mean, it was twenty years ago now.
Ash:Yeah. Sure.
Ian:But at that time, we we're just about getting TED Talks. So TED was just appearing Yeah. On the horizon. And people were not doing TED Talks using the kind of slides that I saw in my work life. That was a different and just to be really clear, people who do TED Talks are given loads of coaching.
Ian:Yeah. Yeah. A lot of support with slides and how to
Ash:Yeah. Because there are some visuals at times aren't there? TED talks.
Ian:Oh, yeah. For sure. I mean, sir Ken Robinson's famous one about education which was I think one of the first ones that went up there and it's probably got the most listens Yeah. Or watches or whatever. But he just stood there and talked about education.
Ian:Yeah. And it's an amazing talk, and he didn't there was no need for slides, and he didn't use any slides.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah.
Ian:I've never seen him use slides.
Ash:Yeah. But he's got the presents. Right? Yeah. Like Santa Claus.
Ash:The Christmas presents. Yeah. If you give everyone a present, they're gonna listen to you.
Ian:But he's also a very you know, he's had many years experience or Yeah. Bless him, he'd actually died a few years ago, but he had a lot of years of of very articulately communicated. So, yeah, that was just another another thing Yeah. For him, I guess.
Ash:Yeah. But if it's your first your first go and you put together some slides and you've got your notes, then I can see why someone would want more, more support.
Ian:Do you have first time speakers at the Atelier? Yeah. Yeah. And do you help them? Maybe not you personally, but does the team?
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. If they ask for review and but I wouldn't say you need to deliver your talk like this with
Ian:No. No. You're not.
Ash:Anything like that. You'd be like, well, if you wanna use, some sometimes I've been asked, is it okay if I bring my notes? I'm like, yeah. Of course. Yeah.
Ash:You know, it's your talk.
Ian:Well, whenever I do a talk, I actually write the what I'm gonna say out Yeah. In the speaker notes. Yeah. And I do that not because I read it out, because I don't. Mhmm.
Ian:But it means that but what I find very helpful is knowing I like changing slides in mid sentence. Yeah. And what I mean by that is that I start a sentence talking about what was there and then talk about what's next and then just when I get to the noun of what's next I go click and it Yeah. And it appears. And if I write it out in longhand like that it means that I can I know what that sentence is Yeah?
Ian:For it to change slides And then that's like a signpost. So I start the slide and then eventually I arrive at the sentence. Yeah. And the meandering about in the middle is actually fine Yeah. Because I just know what I'm gonna say to move Sure.
Ian:To the next the next thing. Yeah. But so, yeah, I'm I'm I absolutely write loads of notes, and I'd like to be able to see them.
Ash:Yeah. And your style changes as well, I think, to my when I first started doing
Ian:Oh, over time.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. Over time. So not not during the talk.
Ian:That might be interesting. I'm going to start, sleepily Yeah. And then turn into a frenzy to dementing. Yeah.
Ash:And then I'm gonna read from notes, and then I'm gonna make it up. Yeah. And then I'm gonna turn my slides off.
Ian:And then I'm gonna accidentally go backwards from Yeah.
Ash:I've already been like, because it's hard work. Yes. Yeah. But your style changes over time. So I was
Ian:It does. Yeah.
Ash:I was very much like, when I first started doing public speaking, slides were quite heavy. Less imagery, more text. And then I went much more imagery with a lot less text or no text. Yes. And then I kinda softened a little bit and said, well, if there's certain things that I know that I need to I need to say or something I wanna draw attention to, then a bit of text is okay.
Ash:Yeah. And then also, I do use the notes. But in a similar way, I just kind of have shorthand things in there that I want to cover in the notes. Because usually when you go to a decent conference, you'll have
Ian:You'll be able to see your laptop.
Ash:Yeah. You'll be able
Ian:to see basic Yeah. Conference organizing people. If you're listening, they need to be able to look at their laptops while they're presenting.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. Or they'll have the good the bigger conferences will have, like, a little screen.
Ian:Oh, yes. Yes.
Ash:So, you know but I I that kind of I guess I've I kinda use use it all, a mix of everything. You know? So I think, basically, you arrive at whatever makes sort of sense to you. Yes. And I I think based on, like, your rules of thumb, that sounds like it's something near what those rules of thumb would suggest.
Ash:I think so. And I think maybe one of the key things with presentations, talks, is practice. Yes. Rehearse. Yeah.
Ash:So it's like, you know, the more times that you do it and the more rehearsals you that you do of a given talk, the more confidence you can build. Because, yeah, I found that the rehearsals, especially for the bigger talks that I've done, have just really helped, you know, to to bolster the confidence on stage. And then I I just think that, like anything in life, you practice at it, you know, you become more effective. So
Ian:Yeah. I I think rehearsing is a is a is a huge one.
Ash:Yeah. Because even if you do get nervous and then you there's a bit of a misstep, usually, the rehearsal helps you to recover from it quicker.
Ian:At the
Ash:That's not to say you're never gonna do a misstep, but I I find that even if I do, then because I've rehearsed it and I know what's, you know, what the current slide is and what the next slide is, then it's easier to recover from.
Ian:My undoing in presenting is saying something getting overexcited on slide a and saying something that two slides later is then on the slide. I've already said that. Yeah. Yeah. One time, for some reason, I can't remember the story of this, but I think it must have been Lee Rathbone Mhmm.
Ian:Asked me to host the Liverpool tester gathering on one occasion. Yeah. As somebody who's never lived in Liverpool, that was but I there was a lightning talk section Yep. Because there always is, and it's like and they make it very short. They made it very short so that it was not intimidating you and you know if you can stand up for ninety seconds then Yeah.
Ian:Tick vg and I did a ninety second presentation about how to do a lightning talk
Ash:Right.
Ian:Because I felt and just finding it I just found it And short to the point without slides, you don't need slides. So what do you have to say? And then what outcomes do you want from the audience? What are the things you absolutely must say? And then you can kind of divide the time up for the lightning talks.
Ian:It's like twenty seconds of context, fifty seconds of the main story, and then twenty seconds of a call to action. Yep. I basically went through that really in ninety seconds. Yeah. And sort of said, well, now anyone who's got something to say can use that formula Yeah.
Ian:And just be able to do it. And some people did, which was very good. Nice. Nice. I'm just looking at a it was a keynote presentation.
Ian:I'm just showing it. It's basically just made of drawings that I that I did. So the font is truly atrocious.
Ash:It's Comic Sans, everyone.
Ian:It's even worse than Comic Sans. Ian's handwriting.
Ash:Ian's handwriting. Based on Comic Sans. Same font family.
Ian:Same font family. I just want to die now.
Ash:The ultimate insult. Yes. Your handwriting is Comic Sans. And I thought we were friends.
Ian:Well, my rule of thumb there is don't use Comic Sans because people will basically look down on some percentage of people will look down on you from a great height if you do.
Ash:Okay.
Ian:And you may not want
Ash:to look at that. Of people might be quite high.
Ian:Yes. And you might not want to have to deal with that. Whereas if you go and look in a school and look on a notice board, almost everything's in. Why are you doing that? That's goodness.
Ian:That was way too long of a thing.
Ash:It was a monumental thing. One for the valley. Multiple monuments in the valley, I think.
Ian:Yes. Well, yes. Thank you. I did have a are we the buddies moment somewhere halfway through. I'll hang on a minute.
Ian:But, yes, people should do their best talks Yeah. And they should rehearse and beyond that, go nuts. Say what you have to say.
Ash:Yeah. Say what you have to say. And if you need, something to help you to do that, then slides, notes, things like that might be great for that.
Ian:Yes. Well, thank you for so thoroughly engaging with that thing.
Ash:I've done so much public speaking that it's it's actually a topic that's quite quite close to my heart. Yeah. Me too. Me too. And also to sort of try and encourage people to do their first talks in the Italia, but you need to be open minded with how that happens.
Ian:Yeah. That can be so great in the right environment where people are on your side. They want you to succeed. I think it's a fantastic thing.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. Because everybody's gotta start somewhere. Right?
Ian:Yes. Do
Ash:you know? I don't know anyone who's got it right.
Ian:Nobody has to start with Comic Sans, though.
Ash:They could do that. Couldn't
Ian:No. No. You nobody has to do that.
Ash:No. No. But they could if they wanted to. Or even as an experienced What
Ian:if they want to.
Ash:As an experienced speaker who might
Ian:do his next talk In comic sense. In comic sense. I'll try to
Ash:ensure I'm not
Ian:there for that. Fair. Oh, dear. Should we have a,
Ash:have an interlude?
Ian:I think we've,
Ash:it's quite not
Ian:after that. There's probably
Ash:time for a small interlude break from
Ian:We've nearly been going for an hour. I just think, oh, it'd be so nice one day to be finished and think, oh, it's about an hour. That means I won't have to edit it very much.
Ash:To be fair, my well, my thing's a bit, well, actually, no. It's not it's not it's not a bright and breezy one. Well, it could be. It's another trip down memory lane.
Ian:I don't know why that's super funny, but
Ash:it is. It is. Of course it is. So may I begin with an insulate thing? Yes.
Ash:You didn't have to turn
Ian:the music off. Yes. Of course.
Ash:Right. Alas, it's about AI. So sorry, everyone. I'm sure you I'm sure you'll be excited to hear about something that's not AI.
Ian:There are no other topics.
Ash:But that's not why you're here. So I saw an article in The Guardian, that basically said Sam Altman of, of OpenAI said his own product is good.
Ian:Oh, AI and billionaires. Yeah. Well, what what could possibly go wrong?
Ash:Yeah. So I was drawn to the, the complete non journalism of a someone who owns a product saying that his product was good, because, that's obviously not news as such.
Ian:Well, Gerald Ratner, famously, owner of a then of a large jewelry chain, was quite upfront about how his product was crap. And surprisingly, his jewelry train doesn't exist anymore. Yeah.
Ash:But that is news when somebody says something like that.
Ian:Yeah. That is news. Yeah. I think the thing that you described there of which is the opposite of that, is not news.
Ash:No. No. So, basically, there's like a new version of, there's a particular AI model which is which is on the way. What's it called? It is called
Ian:No more musical cover for you.
Ash:No. No.
Ian:You're just gonna have to
Ash:You have to bloody well find it.
Ian:Find the answer.
Ash:No. So I it doesn't actually say, I don't think. But anyway, it's it's it's designed it can write, extremely good creative writing according to Sam Altman, as in, you know, he he's he's unlikely to say that the creative writing is terrible. But the also the other thing that that tempted me in was that, you know, humans kind of write creatively quite a lot. So it's a generative so to create a a model that specifically.
Ian:Is it GPT 4.5?
Ash:Yeah. I think so. Yeah.
Ian:Well, I always go back to the lady that we quoted in one of our very early AI episodes who said, I want an AI that will do the cooking and cleaning so I can do creative things.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. But what you're gonna get is so, you know, of all these, you know, the billionaires who who run these things solving their nonproblems of humans not being able to write creatively, so we need to create a machine to do that. I guess it kind of confirmed one of my biases. It can stay on.
Ian:I thought that part of the problem was that AI writes creatively but doesn't tell you.
Ash:Doesn't tell you where it got it from.
Ian:But it doesn't tell you that it's writing
Ash:creatively. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Ian:It just it just does it. Yeah.
Ash:And the other angle is you've got these, creative writing models, which are obviously or seemingly obviously, using material that it shouldn't be using, copyrighted material.
Ian:Yes. Much to people's unhappiness.
Ash:Yeah. Yes. There's a lot of arguments about that. So there was a few things in that thing.
Ian:Well, apparently, current government is thinking about just saying that AI companies can use things without having to worry about copyright. We we live in a strange country
Ash:at the moment. Strange. Right wing country with the left wing government. Well, I
Ian:All sort of think, are they all that left? I mean, we yeah. It's a dangerous topic. Yeah. I think they're just talking about how, they're going to cut benefits or something, while refusing to tax.
Ian:Yeah.
Ash:It's almost like you just get the same thing.
Ian:Yeah. Yeah. That's what it's all about doing.
Ash:So the other thing, well, after I read this, I asked Claude what it knew about the team guide to software testability, and if it could give me a summary of what each chapter was about. And Claude said, I don't know what that's about. I know it exists.
Ian:Did it know it exists?
Ash:Yes. But it said, I can't tell you what each chapter is because I don't have that information.
Ian:So sometimes Claude says, I could tell you, but I'm not going to because it's copyrighted material. Yeah. I've backed before.
Ash:Yeah. So I just thought, I'll I'll let's give it a go with the book, with my book.
Ian:Give it a go.
Ash:You know? Yeah. Always. Yes. The Australians have been give it a go.
Ian:Give it a go.
Ash:So and I then dropped the truth bomb and said, well, I am Ash Winter, one of the coauthors. And it just said nice to meet you. It says actually, it said, oh, I don't I didn't realize that. How lovely to meet you.
Ian:That's kinda nice.
Ash:Yeah. It is. It was. And then it asked me some questions about testability.
Ian:It hasn't started stalking you or
Ash:something like that. No.
Ian:Everywhere you go, there there is leaning against a lamppost.
Ash:So I know or to a relative degree know that Claude doesn't hasn't been trained on something regarding the team going to software testability, a version of that book that it shouldn't know about.
Ian:So what about chat GPT?
Ash:I don't know. I didn't ask.
Ian:Should we
Ash:see There's only so much time.
Ian:Should we see if ChatGPT 4.5 knows? Are you aware of the book?
Ash:The team guide to software testability.
Ian:It is for oh, no. Yes. There we go. By Ash Winter and Rob Meany. Oh.
Ian:It's part of the team guide series from Scalpel and Thatcher Publications, which also includes team topologies and the team guide to metrics for business decisions. Offers practical strategies for embedding testability into software design and development practices. Could you give me a one line summary for each chapter? I don't know if this is an adequate summary, so I'm just gonna give it to you, and you can tell me if that is a good summary of the chapters.
Ash:That is indeed the the chapter headers. It does have a link to where it got it from.
Ian:Oh, it's it went on the web. Cheeky, so and so. Yes.
Ash:It went to Leanpub.
Ian:Oh, well, that that's not proving anything, is it?
Ash:No. It's
Ian:proving that it can browse the web. Yeah. What's Leanpub? Oh, it's
Ash:a publishing platform. So that must have that text, basically, somewhere in it. I seem to remember writing those small summaries at some point.
Ian:It says, this book is 100% complete.
Ash:To write.
Ian:Oh, it's got an intro to you underneath, which, regressively has your Twitter account attached
Ash:to it. Okay. Move on.
Ian:It says you're a continuously learning tester with a penchant.
Ash:A penchant?
Ian:For getting involved in all aspects of developing people, not engineering people.
Ash:No. Right. So so all it did was just go off to the Internet and say
Ian:Yeah. That was that was a bit of a cop out.
Ash:Yeah. So it wasn't what the model knows about. So can you ask again and say without going off to the Internet and finding out?
Ian:Maybe.
Ash:This isn't my thing.
Ian:Without going online.
Ash:No. No. That's not it. That's something completely different. That is utter.
Ash:Well, I recognize some of the words from different testability models, but that's complete nonsense.
Ian:Have you, have you written much about epistemic testability?
Ash:So that's from James Mack's, heuristics of software testability, which is referenced in the book. But, basically, that is just not not it.
Ian:What's Here's a concise one line summary of each chapter from the team guide to software testability as it would be if I'd written it Yeah. Is what this really meant.
Ash:So, yeah, that's that's look
Ian:at this list. I'm grateful that it hadn't written it.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's a super hallucination.
Ian:Oh, well. Apparently, AI hallucinate. You heard it here first.
Ash:Mhmm. Yeah. It yeah. Better off going off to the Internet.
Ian:Yes.
Ash:Yeah. So but I think that proves it knows absolutely nothing about the book.
Ian:But a bit of creative writing is not beyond it.
Ash:I mean, that's very creative.
Ian:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ash:Yeah. So that was my interlude thing.
Ian:I'm just gonna complain as my interlude thing Okay. Not having to edit the video from the last episode
Ash:that we videoed. Just just just to be clear, you're gonna complain about your own idea?
Ian:Yes. Yep. So Ash This is easy.
Ash:Made me
Ian:video this entire thing, and then he's made me edit it.
Ash:So for our international listeners At
Ian:gunpoint.
Ash:Right. This is what being British is all about. You have an idea, and then you do it, and then you just complain about it afterwards because it's created extra work for you.
Ian:Mostly, complaining about it afterwards, to be honest.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. But if you wanted to capture the essence of Britishness and bottle it, that would be it.
Ian:Yeah. Not not Harrods Not as some people might say.
Ash:No. No. Absolutely not. Not not Ascot
Ian:No. Or Wimbledon.
Ash:It's having an idea, implementing it, and then complaining about it after.
Ian:Yes. And then the weather.
Ash:Then the weather. Yeah. So if you could make the idea something to do with the weather, even better.
Ian:Well, then you get double complaining. Double complaining. And you don't have to stop and then complain about the weather. I don't really know what to say about it except that it takes a very long time to edit videos, but possibly if you never edit videos normally. Yeah.
Ian:It might be that that's making it take a long time. But I will say it looks good and sounds good. It's it's just I have this very slick process for editing audio. Yeah. And this is sadly completely unrelated to that.
Ian:And you've got things like Riverside where people record remote podcast episodes. Yeah. And that has video. And they've got things that AI is automatically switch between, you know, so that you can see the person that's talking. Yeah.
Ian:And just before the next person talks, it switches the view. They're all very easy. And this is in the immortal words from the film in the loop, it's difficult difficult lemon difficult.
Ash:I've never I don't know what in the loop is.
Ian:It's a film by Armando Inucci
Ash:right.
Ian:With the cast of the thick of it. Yeah. Playing slightly different characters apart from
Ash:Malcolm Tucker.
Ian:Malcolm Tucker. Yes. Who is in both of it. But, there's this wonderful scene. It's Tom Honda is the minister in it, and he he ends up in this meeting in America where he's somehow committed to both supporting and not supporting the war that's about to happen.
Ian:Yeah. Both sides think he's on their side. And so they they say, oh, we would think our British counterpart would have something to say about this. And they all look at him and he said, yes. In in Britain, we've got a saying for situations like this.
Ian:And then his face drains of colour and he looks appalled but he can't stop himself from uttering the words it's difficult difficult lemon difficult' which which basically you know they just perfectly encapsulate that feeling when you realize that what you're about to say is unutterably stupid but it's too late the wheels are in motion and you can't you can't back out now
Ash:you can't say nothing
Ian:you're committed Your your mouth is going to say the things that you've got queued up waiting to go out and you just can't stop it. So yes.
Ash:So if I ever hear you use the phrase it's difficult difficult, lemon difficult.
Ian:I'm gonna send you a clip from YouTube Okay. Of that moment in it because there's a bit before where, he sends his assistant off to do something and the assistant is complaining saying it and he says no no it'll be easy peasy lemon squeezy and he says no it won't it'll be difficult difficult lemon difficult thus planting the phrase into his boss's mind ready to trot out in front of all these important Americans.
Ash:It's a lovely entire
Ian:And the whole scene is cut with Malcolm Tucker running to get from one end of Washington DC to the other to stop whatever this is from happening. So he's just running and then it goes back to this nightmare scenario and it's back to him running a bit more. It's a very good film. If you like the thick of it
Ash:Which I do.
Ian:It's an excellent film. You should watch it.
Ash:Wow. Wow.
Ian:Anyway it is difficult difficult lemon difficult
Ash:Yes.
Ian:To edit a podcaster's video when you're really just used to doing it as audio. Yeah.
Ash:When you've already got an established process.
Ian:Yes. Which I suspect I'm gonna have to do as well Possibly. We'll see. So there will be a normal audio version and then there will be a video, but of course we're talking about the last episode. So by the time you hear me saying that there will be this and there will be that, it would already have happened.
Ian:And if it wasn't there, now I'm just embarrassing myself.
Ash:Yeah. Just think of time in the cosmic sense, and then the podcast will arrive
Ian:I think you mean
Ash:precisely what it means to.
Ian:I think you mean the cosmic nonsense.
Ash:May I, talk about a thing?
Ian:So, Ash. Of course. Thanks. But what is it?
Ash:What is it? Well, so Ian went for a a very meaty thing, a girthy thing of a monumental thing.
Ian:I'm not sure what I how I feel about that Okay. That adjective.
Ash:So I just went to the register website and looked for something that interested me and thought that can be my thing.
Ian:So It wasn't something to do with HP making you wait fifteen minutes before
Ash:you even
Ian:talk to them.
Ash:That was still on there. But but I thought, well, we probably can't talk about that again
Ian:No.
Ash:Even though it's quite interesting.
Ian:It is.
Ash:So I decided to go with Skype and its imminent retirement.
Ian:The demise of Skype. Yeah. Yeah. So Do we need to have a minute silent in May?
Ash:In May. So, yeah, I didn't I didn't actually what? Did I actually capture the actual date? No. I don't.
Ian:We we should aim to be on a Skype call at the time. That
Ash:would be
Ian:pretty amazing. We could we could be cut off in our prime.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. I used to love Skype. I used it all the time.
Ian:But what are the chances that nobody will be on it at all at the time when they turn it off? There's there's there will be people on it, won't there?
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. So why did this interest me?
Ash:So I think Skype was a bit of a pioneer of online communication.
Ian:It was. It was, well, it was the first one really like that, wasn't it?
Ash:Yeah. Yeah.
Ian:Cue emails from people saying Well Actually, by the way, ICQ something something something. Do you remember ICQ?
Ash:No. I don't actually.
Ian:I had a six digit number on ICQ. It'd be cool.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. Of course. You you know, there will be people with using older protocols who will say that it wasn't the first.
Ian:Well, I
Ash:think it was probably one of the first to combine video and chat, wasn't it?
Ian:Yeah. Eventually. It was no. It was very good.
Ash:Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think if if you're of a certain age, certainly, it was, like, pretty magical, you know, what it what it could what it could actually offer.
Ash:So Well, it was free as well as I seem to remember.
Ian:It was heavily used by podcasters. Yeah. Early podcasters used it. And I think a lot of them were you saying the quality was good enough that you could just record it on your computer?
Ash:Yeah. Which is pretty incredible, really, isn't it?
Ian:Yeah. I mean, I think what happened was in the end, people would record the each person would record locally their the conversation Yeah. Their half of the conversation, and then they would edit it from that. But I think for for a lot of people, Skype was actually high enough quality to to do that. I think a lot of podcasts were like that.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. So Skype kinda went on its merry way and seemed to and got pretty big as well. Yeah. But then in 2011, Microsoft said, well, we'd like to buy this and add this to our pantheon of tools.
Ash:And that was kind of
Ian:Pantheon of tool of tools.
Ash:Sorry. That's a ton of phrase.
Ian:It really is. It's suggesting that, you know, Office and other Microsoft products are the gods of Tooling gods. The tooling gods.
Ash:So Microsoft bought it in 2011 and then didn't seem to do too much with it. I think they bundled it with operating system.
Ian:As was there. A bit.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So rather than it, it seemed to cease to become, like a a place of innovation and became more of a something that you add to an operating system. And then the this made me laugh as well.
Ash:They redesigned it, Microsoft, to make it more like Snapchat, which most people didn't like.
Ian:Who among us has not dreamed of being able to conduct I mean, to to be our conversations.
Ash:And have them disappear immediately.
Ian:Well, in the form of a I
Ash:Just just to be a fly on the wall in that product discussion when this decision was being made, I I I think that would be one of the highlights of my life, to be honest.
Ian:I think we could start a new podcast where we just had fake product meetings about product decisions that we think are particularly dire Yeah. Yeah. Like the HP customer support one. We just record how we imagine the meeting to have gone.
Ash:Yeah. And it's just like, I know what we should do with this tool, this communication tool that everyone uses for, you know, maintaining long distance communications over a long to over a long time. Let's re redesign it to look like Snapchat. So
Ian:Did it have the, the ability to make people look like animals? Probably. A lot
Ash:of them have that now, though, don't they?
Ian:I still absolutely adore that video of the lawyer who attended a court hearing and couldn't Couldn't turn off. Zoom and couldn't figure out how to turn off the thing.
Ash:Why are you a cat?
Ian:That was making him become a cat.
Ash:He was like, I'm not a cat.
Ian:Yeah. Yeah. He felt the need to assure the court that he was not a cat.
Ash:Let it be put on the record. I am not a cat.
Ian:The the cat's face, to be fair, was very expressive. Yeah.
Ash:Yeah. So I guess there's upside to basing things on Snapchat. You know? Yeah. But maybe not for the longevity of Skype.
Ian:No. Maybe not.
Ash:And then over time, Slack, Google Meet, Zoom, all the other options got bigger. And then Microsoft created an internal competitor to Skype, beautifully featured Teams.
Ian:Yeah. And misnamed.
Ash:Yeah. Which is now shipped with Windows 11 and not Skype. So after Windows 10, Microsoft were like, we're we're gonna ship Teams with everything now.
Ian:And then we're gonna start charging you for it. Yeah. So
Ash:that I guess that was the death knell. And then we're finally gonna turn it off. So my question, what was your early Skype experiences?
Ian:You know, I don't really remember. I don't think I particularly had anyone to talk to on Skype at the time when it came out. I thought it was cool. I played with it. Yeah.
Ian:I think I would talk to people on the phone. It's one of those things where timing is everything. Yeah. So when Skype came out, I was probably my thirties or something, and I had a phone. But if I'd been in my teens, that would have been brilliant for me.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah.
Ian:I think mostly when I ever used it, it would have been for international Yeah. Dialing. Yeah.
Ash:That makes sense.
Ian:Because that was megabucks.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah.
Ian:And I also seem to remember once getting a PSTN telephone number for my Skype account. Yeah. Because I just thought I had a moment of thinking this is really cool and doing it and then realizing after about a month, I have no use for this and and then discontinuing it.
Ash:Right. Okay. So we used to use it for weekend testing. So more testing. You mean
Ian:testing at the end of the week rather than testing that was not as strong as other tests?
Ash:No. Weakened testing.
Ian:So today
Ash:Weekend testing. Yes. So over the weekend, we would test something. It's important to clarify. We would use Skype as the communication mechanism, and it was awesome.
Ash:We had a great time.
Ian:That does sound good.
Ash:Yeah. So it was loads of fun. So that's kind of one of my earliest memories, and it was like, I have Skype. And I was like, that was so cool. I don't know.
Ian:Sorry. Yeah. I mean, absolutely brilliant use of Skype, but weekend testing. Yeah. Is this what do what?
Ian:What?
Ash:So testers would get together on the weekend, pick something to test.
Ian:Some lucky organization would find out that their website was a bit panicked.
Ash:Pick something terrible via LinkedIn. It was just broken. So, yeah, we used to do that over Skype.
Ian:My entry in one password for Skype is so old. It was last edited in 2011, and the website, your the URL in the one password page for it is HTTP, not even HTTPS. Blimey.
Ash:So on a kind of wider basis, it's like, why do big companies buy these things and then not really do anything with them? Or seem to a lot of companies seem to say we'll leave you alone and you can continue to innovate but then they don't.
Ian:Well, that that might be like me though. I mean, I buy things and don't really do things with them so I don't think it's confined to big companies But,
Ash:I bought a guitar.
Ian:Yeah. I
Ash:played it.
Ian:Got that. Yeah. Exactly. Once you're in a big company, then you're fighting for funding with all the other divisions of the company and you're unless you're making megabucks. And if you are making megabucks, then the company is probably taking the the megabucks away from you.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot of, like, big video game, developer type companies who've been bought by Microsoft as well. And then Microsoft said initially, we'll we'll leave you alone and you just do what you do. And then I think eventually they didn't leave them alone.
Ian:Yeah. The writer. Yeah. That wasn't how it panned out.
Ash:And then they started poking around in there. And then the original culture tends to disappear a little bit, I guess.
Ian:And then before you know it, you've got magic time.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah.
Ian:Can never resist having a bit of a go at magic time.
Ash:So do you think the the next generation of online communication type tools, the Slacks, the Zooms, the Google Meets, are they better? Are they similar? Or
Ian:I'm I'm excited for VR.
Ash:No one's talked about VR for a little while on a on a major basis. You know what I mean?
Ian:You mean we haven't on this podcast? Yeah.
Ash:Yeah. Well, I assume, like, meta put, like, x amount of money into the the the metaverse
Ian:and Everybody's putting all the
Ash:money into it. Is put. Yeah. Exactly.
Ian:But,
Ash:The trend has changed.
Ian:But one of the things about VR that I found very compelling was that. Mhmm. So Meta have a thing called workspace or something like I don't know. They're all called workspace. Verizon work rooms or something maybe.
Ian:Something like that.
Ash:Meta looked around what every other tool was called and called it that.
Ian:Call it that. Just call it what it is. I did a a test of that a few years ago with Dan Hammond, my friend and fellow resident. We tested it out, and it was really compelling. So even though we were cartoon versions that we we'd had to quickly do, it did things like tracking where your hands were so you could point to something that was in your virtual space Right.
Ash:Okay.
Ian:And other people in the space could see your arm pointing and they would see it pointing to what you'd intended to point to.
Ash:Mhmm.
Ian:And there's a whole lot of actions of pointing there which is way back not on video. And it had vocal direction as well so, you could hear if someone's talking to your left or your right, and you could reconfigure the room by clicking something so you could make it into a theater really easily or or a round table
Ash:Okay.
Ian:Or a long table. And you could bring your computer into it, which was the final thing. So it could recognize the keyboard of your computer using the cameras in the in the VR headset and then it could see you typing then you add an agent on your machine that would appear as a virtual screen. Yeah. So you could look down and see your fingers typing and there'd be virtual fingers on a virtual keyboard, but they matched what was in front of you in reality.
Ian:From that, you could then project your screen onto a big screen in the room that everyone could see. There was a lot about it that was great, but what was what the main thing was that convinced me was how viscerally present it felt like being somewhere with people. Yeah. And, actually, if you can come up with a solution for that that makes you feel like you're in a place with people, that will always beat. I feel like I'm in my office looking at people in rectangles.
Ian:Yeah.
Ash:Yeah. And I can turn my camera off. Yeah. I think that those types of things. Yeah.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah.
Ian:It was it was very it felt very at a very fundamental level like being somewhere with people. Yeah. And that means that I think eventually when the technology gets sorted out, because at the moment, you have to wear giant headsets
Ash:that Yeah.
Ian:Yeah. Slowly droop forwards, and the battery lasts for twelve minutes. Yeah. You know, all the problems, but they'll solve those.
Ash:It'll make the meetings quicker. We've only got twelve minutes.
Ian:Never mind a stand up. Don't mind standing up. I can stand up for hours, but this this headset's blimey. I'm gonna get this up. So that's what I think when I think about the future of it.
Ian:Yeah. Yeah. I think it's just utility level now. It's it's just become what we do. Yeah.
Ian:You know, and I like the little Apple things they do. Like, you can if you do a heart shape with your hands, your your Mac or your phone makes hearts come out of it. Yeah. And this is the best one. Double thumbs down.
Ian:Now a cloud appears above your head and it rains on you. Not a real cloud, just in this.
Ash:I was gonna say that's amazing.
Ian:Yeah. Yeah. It would be. Yeah. Just on your Apple computer, the double thumbs down will cause you to be under a rain cloud.
Ian:You know, that's cute and all the rest of it, but it's not transforming the experience in a way that
Ash:No. No.
Ian:In a way that that VR can do.
Ash:Yeah. So it's like the current sort of class of tools. Skype was the earliest one, and then you've got, like, Teams, Google Meet, Slack. They're like
Ian:They're all desperately trying to expand what they do. I keep having emails from Zoom about Zoom. What did they call it? Could it be Zoom workspace?
Ash:So Slack Slack have got a I think it's also called workspace where you put, like, you can put documentation and things in
Ian:Although Slack has got Canvas, maybe. Huddles. Yeah. And Canvas is just like a document. Yeah.
Ian:Yeah. And Which is
Ash:also quite a common name for
Ian:things like that. Lists in Slack, which is like you can make Kanban boards in it. Yeah. Although you can't make people leave Trello for it, apparently.
Ash:No. Oh, but you can't make people respect work in progress limits either.
Ian:You can't make people do that in anything.
Ash:It's true. It's absolutely true. So yeah. Because it's like the the
Ian:Ash, you need to be selling it to them, not making them do it.
Ash:Yeah. Actually, I shouldn't use that word.
Ian:You you will be compelled to
Ash:do it. I command you.
Ian:I command you. Yes.
Ash:I command you to use Skype.
Ian:Yeah. Well, after May.
Ash:After May, you will not be able to.
Ian:You can command all you like.
Ash:To be fair, I haven't used Skype for a long, long time.
Ian:It makes me want to go on my Mac and rename Teams to Skype.
Ash:Yeah. Yeah. And there's also, like, the phenomenon that Teams seems like a demonstrably worse product than Skype.
Ian:Well, I
Ash:mean But that seems to have won the end yeah. That seems to have won the internal battle.
Ian:Well, of course it has because Microsoft just said, hey. You can have it for free with Office three six five. Yeah. And so all the financial directors said, right. We're having that.
Ian:And everyone's like, we want Slack and we want something else. Yeah. It's like, nope. Nope. Comes for free.
Ian:It's free. Yeah. You must have it.
Ash:Exactly. Can any of these other products compete on price? No.
Ian:Yes. That's the only thing they can't compete on.
Ash:Well, I suppose if you need to have a differentiator and your product is terrible, then it's gotta be priced.
Ian:The thing is that Teams was being sold as a team workspace, and Zoom was just a video calling software. Yeah. But, basically, Teams is only used as a video calling software. Hardly anybody uses it as Team Workspace because it's so bad at it. Yeah.
Ian:And they made an architectural decision early on to back end it onto SharePoint, and then suddenly you couldn't do things. So in Slack, if you want a private channel, you just make one, But you can't have them in Teams or you couldn't for years Yeah. Because they'd have to implement it in SharePoint first. Otherwise, all your private channels files would go into a SharePoint that everybody could be able to access.
Ash:Again, to be a fly on the wall.
Ian:I I
Ash:I feel like I'm missing out on all these. I mean, I go to a lot of terrible product type meetings, but I feel like I've missed out on some of the best.
Ian:That's the name of our new podcast is. What's what's the phrase you just said?
Ash:Terrible product type
Ian:meetings. Terrible product type meetings, podcast. Don't This will finally make our fortunes. Yeah. It would just rich from podcasting that
Ash:one. You just have to press the rant button, and I would go. And then all you would need to do is look engaged. No. Don't press it.
Ian:Yes. So
Ash:all you need to do is look engaged and say, mhmm, every now and then. Mhmm. And I'd be like, another thing and another thing. See, I'm see, no. I'm not gonna do it.
Ian:This is a you'd have to have a little disclaimer at the beginning. This is a fictional representation of the meeting where they decided to make HP customers wait on the phone for fifteen minutes or Microsoft Teams or the new AI feature in something something or other.
Ash:So now we get to say goodbye to Skype.
Ian:Goodbye, Skype.
Ash:The whole era has ended or blended into other eras.
Ian:Skype, I hardly knew you.
Ash:Because even though I have fond memories of of Skype and weekend testing, I didn't I didn't I haven't used it for many years. So it's the classic, you know, can you complain of the demise of something that you did not you had no patronage of? Because that's why it's met its demise.
Ian:Mean, this is the Internet, Ash. You can complain about things that are completely unreasonable.
Ash:Well, yeah. True. But I try not to. Well, I try and keep that to specified rants.
Ian:I might mock you a bit Yeah. If you did.
Ash:So that was my thing.
Ian:Well, Ash, a sad a once great tool.
Ash:From the pantheon of tools. No?
Ian:I just find the collective noun pantheon for tools to be worrying into my
Ash:Okay. I'll stop saying it.
Ian:That that, you know
Ash:Figma is obviously in the pantheon of tools. So
Ian:I mean, a lot of the pantheons were full of tools.
Ash:A pantheon full of tools.
Ian:I think, you know, for example, Ares was a bit of a tool in the Roman pantheon.
Ash:Yeah. Greek.
Ian:Oh, no. That was Mars. Mhmm. It was the Roman line, wasn't it? They were all tools.
Ash:They're all tools. So that was it? The thing?
Ian:That thank you for that thing. Everything. It's fitting to commemorate the passing of these these things. It's like the extreme right hand end of this hype cycle, isn't it?
Ash:Yeah. So I guess that's kind of one of the other interesting things as well that, you know, tools do not stay around forever, forever forever.
Ian:Yeah. In episode 350 of well, a lot of things will be going on about the demise of chat GPT. Yeah. Well, this was a fail because we've gone for one hour and thirty eight minutes.
Ash:I blame your thing. Just so you know.
Ian:Also blame my thing.
Ash:Yeah. I blame your thing and by proxy you.
Ian:Yes. It's it's it's right to blame me, and now I must be punished. That was a joke.
Ash:I'll be
Ian:Having to edit it is possible. You know?
Ash:You'll be encouraged.
Ian:I'll be encouraged. Yep. Given a goddamn good encouragement.
Ash:Right. So how do you get in touch with us here at what a lot of things? Not it's not that.
Ian:Well, you could email us on our email address of Ian and Ash@whatalotofthings.com.
Ash:That's the one.
Ian:Or you could comment on the episode on Blue Sky, and those comments will appear to us on the episode pages on our website.
Ash:Please do.
Ian:And you can join our LinkedIn group
Ash:Of course.
Ian:Where we religiously post
Ash:I don't know what
Ian:you mean. Hot takes on each episode as it comes out.
Ash:See, the thing is, the takes is so the takes are so hot that you now assume you I I think, Ian, you you're allowed to also put a hot take up there.
Ian:No. No. I'm like, I've I've done the show notes. I've done the editing. I've posted it.
Ash:I have no more hot takes
Ian:to give. So all my takes are now lukewarm at
Ash:best. All my takes have been given, and all my givens have been taken. Yes. We
Ian:need to pause that for a bit.
Ash:So yeah.
Ian:It's like that song by that chap about I've no more hot takes to give. My hot takes have run away.
Ash:It's time to press the button. I think the other button. The stop recording button, specifically.
Creators and Guests
